Report 1418
Report #1418 Skillset: Nihilism Skill: Torture Org: Geomancers Status: Completed Dec 2015 Furies' Decision: We'll look into upping the damage dealt by torture, and if needed we can add the affliction scaling. Problem: **POSTING THIS FOR THE NIHILISTS** Torture was not too long ago given a very painful nerf, which made it no longer reliable and removed the option for damage-kills for Nihilists. This report will seek to give Torture use again in the longhaul and perhaps make Nihilists slightly more viable again. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Increase base torture damage to max health. Make tortures damage increase for each of the following on the target: Omen, paralysis/entangled. Keep torture cost at 3 power. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: In addition to solution one, make it that A victim upon (any) crucifix will make torture cost 1 power (this is to try and counteract the current ease of writhering off crucifixes from the ectoplasm change, as well as offering some form of group synergy). Player Comments: ---on 12/14 @ 15:49 writes: What painful nerf? The last report on torture (1418) is a pretty substantial usability buff that changed it from never being use to being useable, the complete opposite of what you assert in your problem statement. What are the numbers now on torture, as described in solution two of that report? Doesn't omen already increase its damage, by virtue of being omen? What numbers are you suggesting in solution 1? ---on 12/14 @ 15:57 writes: I meant to reference report 1308 in my previous comment. ---on 12/14 @ 16:23 writes: No support - as commented above, the last documented change to Torture was a reliability buff, lowering the damage output for the ability to use it whenever. According to the quoted report, it currently gives 700 bleeding and 600 damage (900 to robe wearers) as well as one aff for 3p - two tortures in a row will give significant health AND mana pressure, clotting away 1400 bleed will require 3360 mana (each clot of 60 mana removes 25 bleed), and 1200 damage is 10% max health of a demigod with 10/10 health buff. This is, of course, against warriors with full-plate. Against robe-wearers, they will take MORE damage on top of having less health buffs. These are not numbers to scoff at, especially in a skillset with a 50% manakill for 5p and a strong passive ent. As it stands, 2 tortures will not lead to an immediate wrack, thank gods. The nihilist will still have to work, and work fairly hard, to get their target into wrack range. Torture, however, is hardly in need of any substantial buffs with these numbers. ---on 12/14 @ 18:58 writes: Maybe if the numbers actually quoted in 1308 were reached, you could consider it a buff. But being the originator of that report, it was entirely a nerf, one that I was going to resubmit after the Overhaul. It was rarely used before the report, and it was never used after the report. The numbers that I quoted in Report 1308 were nowhere even near the ones present. They went with Solution 2 in 1308, but halved those numbers. It is useless and one of the reasons why I became so disappointed with the Envoy process entirely. ---on 12/15 @ 01:14 writes: If the numbers as stated on the previous report are not what was implemented, then there's a reason there to push for change to meet the original intent of the report, and something I would support as well. Re-wording this report to reflect that would probably be the best - that's assuming a bug report isn't sufficient, of course. ---on 12/15 @ 11:22 writes: Opposed to the report as it currently stands. I request a rewording, as I could potentially support the above sentiment by Lerad. However, as it is at the moment... "Increase base torture damage to max health"??? ---on 12/18 @ 05:12 writes: The solutions are too imbalanced and Nihilists do not need more offense. Omen and crucify are already powerful skills to enable group synergy for damage kills. Not supported. ---on 12/18 @ 06:11 writes: Except Omen is going to be removed in the upcoming Overhaul report, according to what Nihilists were told years ago, which is evidenced by the Report I sent through to change Omen, but decided to hold off until after all the changes have gone through (Report 933). And as soon as Ectoplasm is removed, Crucify will be hilariously wasteful outside of a way to gank and hold someone in place, not because of its damage or inability to cure. ---on 12/19 @ 05:52 writes: What do you mean that Nihilist don't need more offense? Their main offensive strategies have been skewered. They weren't handed an affliction like shackles on a golden platter like Celestines were. For the one that pushed shackles through to Celestines to say 'Nihilist's don't need any more offense' is in incredibly poor taste ---on 12/19 @ 07:03 writes: Can we get some proposed numbers please? Or are you actually asking for torture to deal damage = max health of target. What % increase are we looking at per aff? Are you wanting to change the bleeding tacked onto it? Will the crucify itself count towards the 'entangle' requirement? ---on 12/27 @ 21:07 writes: Just so everyone is aware, I suppose there has been some changes regarding Nihilists, and I am not sure the direction that was mentioned in the Overhaul forum post is still relevant. Here are the changes according to Malarious: "Ectoplasm has been changed. it is now -5/-10 to balance. Hekoskeri (why its strong I am not sure) is -10/-10 balance, -8/-10 eq. Omen has also been changed it is now -4/-10 to resistances instead of +50% damage tken." Now, just so you are aware, Omen used to be a 50% more damage taken. It is now only 12%. I find it incredibly laughable that this is one of the things that Kelly thinks prevents the Nihilists from getting upgrades. It would be excellent to get numbers or some kind of direction announced for the handicapped Nihilists instead of a hodgepodge of shit and misinformation thrown together, especially with prevailing ignorant envoy comments from a supposably respected envoy. ---on 12/27 @ 22:10 writes: The above personally directed vitriol aside, my previous query still stands. Also, I would like to venture that damage-kills were nerfed across the board when constitution went poof and the low-end health of some midbies went upwards, then damage scaling went backwards as outliers got flattened. ---on 12/28 @ 23:59 writes: Current damage is about ~1000 at 10k max health. This damage is increased by deathmark directly a about 5% of max health at max mark. This report would ask for the damage to be closer to a staff hit for 3p, or its equivalent formula. Deathmark would continue to add 5% max health, while omen and paralysis/entangle would each add 25% of a staff hit. This would give roughly 1.5 staff hits for 3p plus 300 or so bleeding, and an additional 5% of max health if deathmark is at max. This setup requires 7 power (omen+torture+deathmark) and a great deal of setup, and is only ideal in groups. Plus it's at 4.5 second eq, so the entire setup of hits would take over 20 seconds and some parts (omen and afflicts) are curable. ---on 12/28 @ 23:59 writes: Thanks to Malarious and Arcanis for helping me work through this stuff while I have soul issues keeping me away. ---on 12/31 @ 23:43 writes: A particulary envoy's opposition to this report is PRETTTTTTTYYYY tacky considering they supported (and were given full responsibility for) a defensive/offensive buff to the most powerful defensive guild in the game, and this is "too much offense" for a now ineffective and conveniently directly opposed guild due to ectoplasm nerfs. I'm a little taken back by that kind of reasoning against this report considering the context. Based on the required affs and power costs, I don't see a reason to oppose it. My only suggestion is ectoplasm, entangled and one other aff that cannot be reliably given by a demon. Since you can give shackles/paralysis passively in the same hit, it effectively removes the caveat.